Warriornet list sparrings part 1
These postings consist of correspondence with fellow list members at warriornet (discussions of indiginous problems, bugs and features). They follow chronological order from januari 26 to the twelfth of februari.

table of contents: letter to the gov of montana about keeping buffalo healthy (allowing and helping them to keep themselves healthy rather) x x x on genetics and intelligence (the twentysixth of januari) x x x martha vs tully: white vs red prejudice  x x x on mascots (thirtyfirst of januari) x x x DTo Dear(born) Ish, I don´t remember what prompted this thing but it is a recommedation of David Yarrow the dowser´s work x x x to mark in taiwan on capitalism (second of februari)  x x x to ish on David Yarrow x x x a long drawn out (it takes up two thirds of this file) discussion of the term "savage" (as used by the "Friends of Peoples close to nature", Helmut Heller). by James Craven, professional offense taker, Proyect, his crony and a lot more folks at warriornet who got sucked into the fray of agrguing racism, white privilege; imperialism; jewish history, habits and plans of reservation/ mutation x x x on respect for childhood x x x on the mascotte issue x x x letter to the bureau of prison director (tenth) x x x some of Amsterdam's nutty interknotty terminal situations  x x x star´s hurt again x x x on Beckerath and gold (the ninth of februari)  x x x on delete piet x x x on jefferson´s slave "boffing" x x x on the Dutch (a- and) organizing section of the (planned for june 99) intercontinental caravan x x x to the pen-l listmom on the 26th of januari  x x x  to (fellow removee from the pen-l list) gerry levy and to Tom Walker (still there) on Proyect´s demagoguery (feb eleventh) x x x umpteenth draft on jews and jesuses(unfinished) go to part 2 directly

Welcome to over 88 files (averaging over 88 colourful K'z) worth of BLABS = Bottom Line Aphoristically Ballistic Solutions meaning: Solutions which break uncivilly polarizing centralizations up or open, wether institutionally animated or simply, inertly dormant yet animatable.

Switch to most main files at this site via the Index (includes brief descriptions to the main features) or (via appetizing one or two line characterizations of their segments which vary in size from a few lines to a page or two)from here: /table_of_contents.htm.
or to some work I admire via: /guest_appearances/intro
 or to my list interactions via: table of contents for all list post files
or to my correspondence collection from here

Half of this site was created/gestating during the 80ties (links thereto are in the table of contents for instance) and the rest since then (latest files at tops of all content files). Last corrections/updates and add ontos: late july 99
(only partly hypered) link files at this site are commendablinklist.htm and new_links and recent_links.htm and (almost fully hypered) Balkan sites, lists and (re)commentces  and fifth_linklist.htm
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The headings, dates, subjects, adressee and senders when and if provided are marked in this (light yellow) colour in this file. About the other colours in this file: They don't only change whenever a different citee/writer/speaker is next. The following 2 sets of remarks were valid when and while I had all my subscribed list selections criss-crossing in the same files but now that I seperated them, no one body carries one colour throughout a file consistently (and neither do I)  and so the following preminders no longer apply: throughout the first half of this file all my writs, responses and provocations are in this colour; in the second half they are in dark grey. my sparring partners are given others like so: firstCircle (chavEZ) Louis Proyect defends this colour here. Texts written by meself are white in the first quarter of this file. The second quarter shows them off in this colour. The third quarter has magenta following the winding ways of my key board compositions (unlike the paper initiated ones in the first half of my page). The final quarter colour for my keystrokes is this one.
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On Tue, 26 Jan 1999 11:14:52   Ish wrote: Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 10:45:01 -0500 To: NATIVENEWS  From: Ish <ishgooda@tdi.net> Subject: 'DIPITY Re: Violence Initiative Project Part 1: "*Noquisi* (Day Starr)" <1DAYSTAR@worldnet.att.net> :  Mitch Cohen wrote:  Beware The Violence Initiative Project -- >>> Coming Soon to an Inner City Near You   by Mitchel Cohen, of the Brooklyn Greens / Green Party of NY, & the Red Balloon Collective  "It is proper to focus on blacks and other minorities as they are over-represented in the courts and not well studied."       -Gail Wasserman, Ph.D., from her funding proposal to establish a "behavioral disorders" center at Columbia University's Department of Child Psychiatry.       "Unemployment runs in the genes just like bad teeth." - Richard Herrnstein, Princeton University, and co-author of The Bell Curve.       As late as the 1980s, a number of U.S. and European scientists were still claiming that Black people, Latinos and American Indians are less intelligent than Caucasians. (Asians were left out of the mix.) Intelligence, they said, ran in the genes along racial lines. Some scientists are now proposing that violence is an hereditary characteristic of Black and Latino people and, unlike the case with genetic intelligence, something can be done about it.   .............snip.........  Far less in public resources are allocated towards researching the effects of toxic byproducts of industrial production and the chemicalization of agriculture in causing cancer, lead-poisoning and other immune-compromising "diseases". Instead, funding * and thus, blame-- is shifted to an individual's (or ethnic/racial grouping's) biological makeup. In such a framework, the widespread social and environmental causes are ignored and the victim becomes targeted as the culprit. It's their own fault. Or, if not their "fault," the more liberal version goes, it's still "in their genes, poor souls."    -- Back To The Blanket Journal: http://www.angelfire.com/biz/BackToTheBlanket    Heroine Mu Gui-Ying http://www.geocities.com/Tokyo/Pagoda/7111    Tsonkwadiyonrat (We are ONE Spirit)  Unenh onhwa' Awayaton  www.tdi.net/ishgooda/

Genes are but fluid memories and that's all too often forgotten.     Of course someone with a background of deprivation is going on memories of valuesets where life is cheapened and in a freeing market that will devalue the ones who hold 'mselves somehow dearer.....(offensive defense methods, etc) Here is one reason:  Nomansland, prudently held in between peoples as buffers is losing that function as patrist/male rule denudes and robs it, narrows and finally obliterates it consolidating in mass societies with mean tricks.  Agression can be put to good uses easily enough I think.      Go see: /minerals_momentae_taskforces_and_futures.htm

On Mon, 23 Jun (his computer clock/calender is fucked) 1997 23:03:52   Ya-ZZZZ wrote:Tully,  I hate to burst the bubble but there is not one "holy" or otherwise path that I would enter with whites.  They are genetically predisposed to dominating and defining the discussion - if not by force then by cajoling and pretending to apologize from a position of power.        hoko'one.   ya-ZZZ                    I am sorry you have no use for me or my kin(d) (whatever that means for a mongrel) but I wish you success on your path and that of the kinds of beings you will work with and towards  ps: if i could call whites home, bait and/or seduce 'm succesfully I would, even if it should cost me my life. and no hesitation but it won't be that easy. It will cost more than mine and perhaps me more than on life but i will take on that challenge of tracing and honouring roots wherever they lead

On Sun, 31 Jan 1999 01:40:24   MarthaET wrote: I see that you are arguing, Tully.  You are not listening with an open ear, mind, eye, or heart.  You are not trying to learn.  You are defending a position.  I am sorry.    Martha   hey marthy, blame me since I started this devil's advocacy thing. I wrote a bit with that title but forget where I placed it. I'm down to depending on public terminals so can't look now but go see: table_of_contents.htm
>In a message dated 99-01-31 01:36:47 EST, Tully wrote: > But until I learned the context of the term, it meant nothing to me.  I had  to personally feel that context and perspective before I could understand how the word was wrong.  Just because my parents told me it was true doesn't make it so.  In fact my dad used the word, being a good southern boy.  Over the years I disagreed with them more and more and now we hardly agree on anything. Now folks.  Indian mascots cause pain.  People with a minimal sense of decency never use them.  O, I never intended to cause pain. >Good then say you're sorry and stop using the god damned mascots.ny further questions?  I do not believe that the issue is this simple by any means.

Mascots, Whites, and Capitalism On Mon, 1 Feb 1999 19:44:53    Mark Munsterhjelm wrote: >Greetings, Capitalism is the problem not the white race. The Saami peoples of Northern scandinavia are white but are still struggling to hold on to their cultures. The Celtic peoples of reland, Scotland, and Wales were conquered by England and their languages nd cultures were devastated. Read up on the "Enclosure" process when the re-capitalist societies of England were forced off the land to become the odder for England "Industrial Revolution".  ....snip.... To focus on whites is to ignore these ther Aboriginal peoples struggles against that juggernaut called capitalism.                   Sincerely yours, >Mark Munsterhjelm hihlin, Taipei, Taiwan >e-mail: gustav88@ms13.hinet.net           hey my man mark, please try to differentiate between coercive and co-operative capitalism.       Just as there are indeed plenty of arbitrarily arrived at distinctions made between bipeds, their basis in personal experience is no safe ground to deduce law from; that takes comprehensive and coherent but not necessarily more elaborate than nutshelled) learning.      An adult will never know the rapture of a child except by proxy  and neither can a child conjure the flashes of insight a life immersed in books about bordercrossing (universal?) values kindles though he will feel its magnitude.           Some prudently prune each other so the mix of variety rules like hunting braves do, others become victims of their own selfindulgent success and move toward overpopulation, storage, stockpiling, overgrazing, surplus, monopoly and -tony of boomer buster nomadism; our present day financial world is a derivative of such scavenging opportunism.             It is hard to prove these or those strains are sole or even predominantly the most effective perpetrators. Money changes lives in a flash. And risk aversion is not such an attractive concept for the adolescent male.     to be continued, i just got a sub to the UB of A'dam for under 100 guilders which includes about 50 terminals.

Dear(born) Ish, (I don´t remember what prompted this thing) but it is a recommedation of David Yarrow the dowser´s work: Reminds me of David Yarrow, a man worth checking out.       1) he is one of the world's most vocal advocates of the use of fresh, paramagnetic gravel dust, rock powder (mineral flour) to regenerate the chain of beings by feeding the bottom end of it; the main theme at my site  (by the way, in case you hadn't noticed)    2) he wrote a book called the dragon and the ice castle, an account of his one man crusade against polluters and mall builders during the course of which he learned a whole lot about Indian mounds and sacred places.                   3) he is the only one who got me in touch (not more than a day's visit really) with people living on a rez.        4) he had a program to get homeless out of towns (NYC mostly) onto land (upstate on a farm owned/operated by a black team) and learning some selfsufficiency tricks of a provisionary and less of a scavenging nature. The authorities wouldn't move their allowances at that time and the scheme folded. He also did a lot of work on power leakages. Did I say he was a dowser? He is.             David Yarrow's work can be found on Dan Winter's homepage (http://www.danwinter.com) or via my link list (green section, just use the 'find in page' function)

The following post (about the term: "savage") started quite a chain reaction; one of the welcome distractions from the mascot issue which, to me at least wasn´t hitting very close to home   At 09:26 AM 2/2/99 +0100, you  (Helmut Heller) wrote: I have a request directed to UNEP. Everyone is asked for  comments, ammendments and support.  SAVE THE LAST SAVAGES: Due to heavy destruction of their biosphere there are only very few non-civilised tribal peoples left on earth, who are living as hunters-and gatherers. Their total extinction is a matter of only a few years under the ungoing destruction. The rest of the world will loose invaluable treasure of human knowledge and wisdom,  how to live in harmony with surrounding nature.  FPCN appeals to the UNEP          1. to invite traditionalist representatives among the last non-civilized peoples and last hunter and gatherer societies and hear their complaints.        2. to enable FPCN to mediate  and join the meeting           3. to lauch a protection program for the last non-civilised societies under the consultancy of FPCN          4. to support FPCN in their campaign against legal and illegal logging on tribal land of hunter and gatherer societies. >> Hartmut Heller, Friends of Peoples Close to Nature  h.heller@gmx.net,  www.fpcn-global.org  The 'Friends of Peoples Close to Nature' is a network of individuals and groups concerned with the survival of savage tribal peoples, in particular hunter-gatherers. These are the last societies on Earth to have a non-exploitative relationship with the natural world. Our task is to help them preserve  their unique cultures from enforced assimilation, the ideologies of 'progress' and 'growth' and absorption into the global economy.               ><remainder snipped>            On Tue, 2 Feb 1999 07:12:32    firstCircle wrote: >hola!   what does this mean? "The 'Friends of Peoples Close to Nature' is a network of individuals and groups concerned with the survival of savage tribal peoples, in particular hunter-gatherers." With friends like this who needs the FBI? hunter gatherers......does that include wasichus that track us down and round us up?
Are you just looking for an argument or seriously making the mistake of seeing smoke where there isn't any fire? From what I gather the FPCN are civilized (I mean native) peoples emissaries and (privileged) public opinion impacters  who are concerned, sympathize and stand with hunter-gatherers (even though not themselves hunter-gatherers by birth), since able to overcome the (surely, as in each of us, slumbering) inclination and transform the ability to either humiliate, kill or adopt our enemies (something the FBI is indeed not to scrupulous about). Potentiated vices are uglier...fact of life.       >please explain. hoping the etymologists on the list will take a stab at this one too. or will club membership privileges be in effect here?             que la ch*ngada!   eZ              It pains me to see that you are troubled by (however much warranted) suspicions. I am ashamed for all the bad experiences you suffered from, imposed by people with fair skin. That said, have I a right to continue?           You are obviously sharp enough to get the meaning of such an elegant name in focus (you are sharp enough to see how it can be misinterpreted); I wish you could be grateful for the preciously little living dripdrops in commercial culture kindred's bucket who put the savages and primitives on a pedestal, sort of in the same way some (though few) parents still take a religious, non interfering, protecting interest in their offspring.             Allow a child to play at a precipice but be ready to grab (oops maybe a bad word)...bad analogy perhaps too....better compare it with poacher (FBI) prosecution and mobilizing public opinion back amongst our own kind.            There are whites inspired by Indian rough and ready ways; a healthy dose of death for each participant in the multispecial universe so none dominate and none are excluded. This never hurt no-one kind more than others and gives all life forms a change  to contribute to a perfect mix; as in love making; stopping short of a certain type of development makes one religious and humble, one's life wonderful. I am serious about this use and deployment of and respect for death.....especially if taken in the multiplicitous sense of knocking rock, which, cause already asleep, wakes; as much as such a knock, when hard enough, would send most beings the other way on the same scaley snake tale. Handtools now; machines to replace shoddily turfing bureaucrats only!        On Tue, 02 Feb 1999 09:41:42   John H. Stevens wrote: snip..........the indigenous must remain static, pure, and marginal for all time.  The greatest insult is that this idea devalues every other indigenous community by labelling them as failed communities that have forever lost their struggle to regain or strengthen their polities and cultures, that they are unworthy of support, and that, in essence, its all *their* fault and has nothing to do with historic or contemporary power relations.        >These are the crimes that ideas like "the savage" perpetuate, and until we change those ideas and shift the baggage that they carry, such words are suspect and tainted, and they only hinder the progress of indigenous struggles.   Slan,     John Stevens             Cornell University            poetpiet writes: Well, I guess I am learning slowly, so bear with me. I open, con-, and include some new perspectives for myself here: the mostly white hippy rainbow crowd was looked down upon for obvious reasons (hedonism, romanticizing, etc) by NAs. I understood that well enough and share the feeling to a large extent. Now all of a sudden I hear defenses here and earlier from Craven (but he has an excuse, Jewish blood) for changing updating and improving native cultures!!!!! Is my head spinning with this understanding beginning!! let me add a bit here which stems from reading the encounter between Craven and a Pen_ller who is probably booted of that lists though not as fast as I was. I believe Heller would understand what I am driving at here....at least I hope so.  (see: progressive_ecoknowmusts.htm for more)           On Sun, 31 Jan 1999 19:01:57   Ya-ZZZZ wrote: Tully, Celine, and Helmut Heller are probably all plants.  I am tossing their mail out as it comes in along with piet bouter's.  I prefer to have no further discourse with these ones.  I don't give a damn about their little egos or their opinions.     hoko'one   ya-ZZZZ               hey same to you, I'm sure you'll be happy I for one will reciprocate. And don't even thank me if/when I manage to get all whities off your back. I'll keep on trying for that to be sure.             star:     Good grief... ......how about Indigenous Nations... ....how about empowering... .....how about letting us show you are pride and our dignity. Do you really percieve us as savages, uncivilized, children. If so what are you doing with Indigenous people? We don't need "white saviours" We don't need people who still trivialize and romanticize us. We need people who will listen and walk with us......PLEASE!           If you are not part of the solution you are part of the problem. Lables have been our problem for 506 years when we were so erroneously named "Indians". Learn some respect for the people you proportedly support.     Thanks, Star               Bouter: "Now all of a sudden I hear defenses here and earlier from Craven (but he has an excuse, Jewish blood) for changing updating and improving native cultures!!!!!"                 Proyect:  Let me correct this boneheaded racialist remark. Jim's mother is of Blackfoot descent, but was adopted as an infant by Jews. His mother only learned about her heritage when she was in her late teens, as her own mother was on her death bed. She then began thinking of herself as a Blackfoot, but never lost touch with the Reform Judaism values her parents had taught to her. Her parents were also leftists and the last thing in the world they were interested in was "Jewish blood." She interpreted this in such a manner as to emphasize genuine indigenous values, as opposed to the sort of BIA-imposed values that had disoriented so many Indians. Genuine indigenous values include respect for mother earth, solidarity with peoples of all colors, belief in the creator, etc. Indians who sell out their people, so as to get some crumbs from oil companies or casinos are not true Indians. I believe that Jim is up in Canada taking part in the Blackfoot tribunal on residential schools, so I am taking this liberty to clarify matters.                Bouter and Heller's obsession with "purity" has nothing to do with progressive politics. Pure Indians or pure Aryans is a meaningless concept. Although nobody on this mailing list takes them seriously, it is important to confront their backward ideas since they form the basis for lots of problems that confront indigenous struggles. For example, the long-simmering dispute between Hopis and Navajos can only be resolved by united action against Peabody Coal. One of the things that has hindered such united action is distrust of the motives of a people from a different tribe. One of the great breakthroughs of the American Indian Movement is that it conceived of an American Indian nation that transcended all of  he subnationalities. The notion of millions of Indians in Canada and the United States coming together to fight for common goals must have thrown Washington into a frenzy in the early 70s. That is the only explanation for the crackdown on AIM. Although it was weakened by police attacks, its powerful vision remains.                   Louis Proyect
(http://www.panix.com/~lnp3/marxism.html)                     well, I don't feel the need to reciprocate here, I will continue to be grateful to Jim Craven for posting bibliographies through his Progressive Economist slot and continue reading stuff there.             As far as blood goes, it crawls where it can't go. That's a Dutch saying. In my eyes (jewish blue) it don't matter a bit wether we are talking habits, routines, mores or blood since these things overlap a lot and leap over more (let's just stop short of spilling it and poisoning it so much). Jim's hurtfilled past pains me too when he is careful to point to the nonbias in his mom's judgement but neglects to mention that in native america the eagle is at least as important in various ways as it once was in Germany. Eagles and bears are conspicuously absent there now. So don't give me no whiney shit about suffering anymore OK? Thanks. Let me end on a pleasant note: At the first australian rainbow gathering I one time and once only in total felt inspired to bawl out a poem (it must have been the one about guitars in my green chapter) there weren't very many people in the circle yet (unlike at american gatherings where politics is an ongoing allday affair peaking around prediner time) then for some reason i looked up and straight above me, very small, was the eagle circling. For the last 5 years, despite difficulties hitchhiking the memories of gatherings have helped me remain steadfast in my resolve not to own a car. goddess speed to yall your secretion reagent of the sun                On Tue, 2 Feb 1999 12:04:51    James Michael Craven wrote: >Hi Louis, Thanks for the note and the comments--all of which are true. The only times I have heard the term "Jewish blood" is either from anti-Semites and neo-nazis or from some Jews of the persuasion and  psychotic temperament of Meir Kahane. This guy is in my opinion an  idiot at a minimum and his tangental and disjointed writings suggest  to me someone suffering severe mental illness.  If my father were Jewish, from a Jewish mother, I would have "Jewish blood" but not be a Jew with out conversion. Blood does not automatically determine values or orientation as evidenced by, for example, some Blackfoot with Blackfoot "blood" who are betraying the  Nation. Someone who writes what this guy writes is simply not worth  one more minute of time except to use him to expose the pathology and  racism evident in so many of his ilk.
>>My mother, who was indeed Blackfoot (Northern Peigan and Kainai) of  the Big Bear Clan, stayed close to Reform Judaism all her life. Blood  was not the sole determinant of her positions or values as it is so  in my own case. Blood is by accident or design of the Creator--take  your pick--the question is what one does with that "blood quantum" whatever it is. In my case, as my father was not Blackfoot, I am as  much non-Blackfoot as Blackfoot--and vice-versa--by blood, however, I  choose to live and struggle as a Blackfoot which does not imply in  any way, disdain or contempt for non-Blackfoot with the exception of  those types already noted. I have as much contempt for sell-out  Indians as racist non-Indians by the way. Louis, I'll be on my way Thursday for the Tribunal in Alberta. I'll keep you posted>Jim               >At 11:26 AM 2/2/99 PST, you wrote: I agree with Yahhhhhzeeeeee and I wonder why warriornet continues to allow these people who attack us to remain on this list. Now they have even resorted to idle threats. Ish do something!!!!!!!!!!!      Star          On Tue, 02 Feb 1999 14:46:48   Louis Proyect wrote:  Kekula is the list owner, but as most people have heard, she is recovering from surgery. Perhaps Scott can consult with her and discuss a plan of action. I have already thrown Piet Bouter off my own mailing list the minute he showed up, and he was also thrown off PEN-L (Progressive Economists) for the same reason. He is some kind of lunatic troll who draws energy away from serious discussions.    Louis Proyect http://www.panix.com/~lnp3/marxism.html)            my reply:  showdown at the corral, I want to open the gate and dear sweet louis is going to lock me out and you all in see below the one and only post I manages to get onto the marxist list or maybe he intercepted it and any responses if there were any. Then judge for yourselves wether you would like a troll rock grinder aiming for a dust freeing society or some kind of loony posting one boring piece about crazy artists and degenerate films after the other.             this one went to the list Louis Proyect runs: http://www.panix.com/lnp3/marxism.html but it was probably intercepted before anyone saw it there: hi, I'll just jump in and run with the webweavil rapids fi(b)ring these 2 opening salvo's; one on africa's homegrown indexes as value standards for their monies,  and the other on marxisms, revolutions and nativisms.       Can anybody give me references to the 'makuta' standards mentioned in the following  (14 K) excerpt from my  Beckerath_on_Milhaud4.htm file? It can be viewed when added to: ~poetpiet/guest_appearances/intro_to_currency_issues.htm (I sent the long WIT quote (see above) along as well; eliciting no reaction at all). I am sure this is evidence of my respect for native cultures and their revivable knowledge. PS Never thought I would have to defend myself from you master preyact                   On Tue, 02 Feb 1999 07:42:02   Star Light wrote: The word "savage" again...........the words "uncivilized" Those words are semantics to me savage is murder rape oppression and repression.           what would you have us use? we have to distinguish and not extinguish the difference between hunter gatherers on the one hand and nomad herdsmen on the other hand. Does the word child conjure up associations with patronage only or with something better than that?.... at least as well I hope..not to mention including the some comprehension of conditions  that leave be no less than let become....           Date: Wed, 03 Feb 1999 09:40:59 -0000; Subject:  my impression so far: I hope this is merely preliminary and merely premature but here it is: my evaluation of a couple of weeks worth of warriornetting,  which may just as easily come in the nick of time given that Louis P is listpops here and he's already thrown me off the marxist list without giving reason or warning. The early word I had to go on about warriornet was: 't is dominated by NAs and it has taken on a negative instead of the positive meaning it could have had (so far anyway) whereas the 'solidarity with and respect for all peoples has lost any other than a lipservice one. 'T is pitiful that list members take certain typifications which the native peoples they apply to, themselves own up to and carry with pride and (I would at least fancy) discerning preference, all too personal and offense to. Apparantly FPCN is the pioneer here when it comes to presenting a palette of problems from around the world. Neither Unpo (Unrepresented Nations and Peoples Organisation; http://www.unpo.org ((Two job opportunities at the UNPO offices in the Hague. 1.Regional Desk Officer Unpaid position  2.Personnel Officer Volunteer position))  nor NCIV Dutch centre for indiginous peoples (inheemse volkeren) are burning their fingers here. All the more reason I would expect, for filling out the undeniably privileged positions and parts played by us here pioneers, with bits and pieces from beyond our personal problems, no matter how big and insurmountable either of them are (I try cause mine are and this work relieves me from a pettily personal focus). I'm not without a romantic streak (though moderately modern in the Joycean sense) and so however much I feel like a snowflake caught avalanching amongst kindred tumblers I know I can communicate all the way back to those who know about conditions at the cradle of the movement and resisted the temptation to jump in, iow understood its beginning, well enough to distill lessons from them. The chinese see their ancestors and children in clouds drifting overhead and similar attitudes towards weather and water are almost universal (don't underestimate choice chavez specially not your own).                  As for certified oppression being the entree criterion to speak up; us eurocomplexed and eurocentered peoples (derivatives of these terms are as abused, inaccurate, abusing and hurtful as the ones in question here I feel) do qualify plenty methinks. The first millenium after christ was one big bad time for peaceful co-existentials. 1000-1400 saw the bloom of culture due to the attrition, bleeding to death (literally) and absence of absentee lords busily pursuing roman imperial power games. The monopolies of violence mutually exhausted, looked for internal support and found it in exchange for access to land, The farmers payed minimal fees to the lords who vyed for their attention and wooed 'm into their jurisdiction with favorable benefits, truly serving their people. After some 400 years of that their strenght and therewith their arrogance was back up to lead Europe into the dark Ages. You guys on Turtle Island had another couple of blissfully federated and civilized centuries to go at that point....well most of you, slavery was not all together absent and unknown was it now? Let's look beyond ourselves on this eminently suitable mediyum fer christalmightily crumbling sake! If you didn't understand me thus/this far and/or took offense, don't continue reading, I'm not out to provoke anyone.                     At the same time I think it needs to be understood that the terminology I see nothing wrong with will continue to include, as it has for a long while in most ethnography I respect (Hell, Craven himself got me to read Weatherford's Savages and civilization ((implying they are one and the same often enough)) by praising the book highly), any and all therms used as self descriptive, selfdesignative and self profilating ones. For that matter I fer one, wouldn't even object to self-imposed cannibalism as long as the neighbouring bands, allies, foes and tribes felt happy with, not victimized by and mutually commited to it.                I stand with Heller on the same grounds, namely, that more peoples than you seem to realize are proud to be called and known as savages and primitives, they want to be left alone, feel and think they should, but what's more know they can be. Even and/or especially when they realize they have very mobile sympathizers making efforts on their behalf at strategic locations and stations somewhere within the avalanching frozen crystals.          Being de- or enveloped is a matter of perspective.           Self indulgence taking the form of one's subjects procreation finds strange bedfellows, not to say very strange successions and successes. May you master masses and start turning (bowing to set) a rock at your feet on its way through the chain of beings. They love a little dream and wake distraction from their sleep or so I am told and have come to beleave.

Ish wrote; >Those who do not think along the lines of our own people, serve to tell us where we end and they begin..our functions are different..their philosophies help to delineate our own..etc    Ish  Tsonkwadiyonrat (We are ONE Spirit)   Unenh onhwa' Awayaton http://www.tdi.net/ishgooda/              thanks for your equanimity ish, sorely needed between us but you provoke me to reciprocate with a story of my own since yours has such a dark gloomy one way overtone to it I like to stress most cancers are curable Pre Script: sorry about all the spaces but these machines ' potential is squeezed off terribly and I can't edit as much as I would normally.   (sent mother's milk along with this)           chaveZ wrote:  i'm wondering if heller and arden might start a movement to counter this cancer.  They could probably come up with some creative ways to "fund it."            my reply: hey turn 'm on to http://members.tripod.com/~poetpiet/  guest_appearances/intro_to_currency_issues.htm          The latest word is this guy will wreck anything maybe even his own 'blood and bad habits". Regarding cancer: you don't mean paranoia do you? As far as AIDS, a bad lifestyle will get you all sorts of diseases but OK I grant you your line of evidence even if it is a bit iffie. I like your political analysis better.

 dear cornell proffie (this turned out a case of mistaken identity: I was responding to the man from Olympia Washington who has so much in common with me but dislikes me none theless tremendously): I use no alcohol, abhore the stuff, haven't had any penicillin even for a decade or so, an aspirin per year at the most perhaps, fullfill my fruit requirements with a heirloom variety of apple; I get bruised ones at a good price from the grower himself and hope to plant my own orchard of them some time soon if the gods, devils, deities and spiritcounsel of beings be willing. Haven't smoked any weed for the last 5 years or so in case you were wondering.          PS I attended a cornell tree conference once.       PS II Is that special library, founded by that suicide's family still operational?

On Tue, 2 Feb 1999 13:06:30    revfever wrote: (Ish said): I welcome the words of these strangers..they keep before me always exactly what the differences are between my culture and the invaders...lest I lose sight. The idea is to learn from all here, some teach what they did not intend.            Indeed. It is better to *know* what certain people are thinking,saying and doing,than not to know,even if it means dealing with/experiencing the likes of these Helmut and Piet (what kinda medications is this guy *on* anyway?) types of characters. >Listen..learn..grow...act.
>
hack pack example and later amendment (about the A´dam public terminal access): The public library in A'dam had a terminal with experimental, relatively high speed connections. It was sabotaged very quickly. Puberty brings with it the prowess establishing urges to destroy things, be faster than the rest, etc....fact of life.           Fathers who don't take their teenagers on an educational exhaustion course (the front line, a vertical one that will leave their sweat and signature to lots of good for a long time to come), will be severely fined.  specs at my site: Index.htm (find the file with the red background)          Ps while getting this file into shape (first editing since 2 months; I kinda relish it!!!): that same terminal described above is back with a vengeance: it is the best loaded engine for miles around, use is free but limited to half an hour a day per person when and if they cue. It is not reservable except by the user´s own consensus process. Which has led to some interesting encounters and squarings already. It is the only machine with the sort of editing power I need and is on call constantly if no others users claim it. Post script: It is now the 16th of july and the mensa with the geodesic pyramid design, i o w: regular bucky architecture is closed and so me and my crazy dinner partner (the man who reads out loud all day and is one of the many persons in Amsterdan set and hell bent on finding and eventually ending believing in their own excuses for not trying, persevering, holding and enjoying a regular job like all the rest of our countrymen do) go to the economy/ chemistry/ physics  housing part of Town. I hadn't been a long time and they completely renovated (in the style of my guest appearance intro appropriately enough; all rust colours) including adding 5 internet terminals with a house made programmature which is so rickety that one cannot reach any site at Geocities and or Tripod (and perhaps more such providers) without the popup allowing no longer a glimpse than 2-3 seconds in duration of the page one seeks (this may have something to do with the size of documents, dunno) . This disease is one which the Public library's 11 new terminals have also. I wrote the system management a note but they are as little helpful as say: Nedstat. I'm getting the referral numbers straight so that can't be what stops it in future if it ever gets going that is.

Date:Tue, 09 Feb 1999 16:48:59 -0000  Re: Everybody's Doin It Now...correction On Tue, 09 Feb 1999 07:55:26   Star Light wrote: Good grief........there is no way to get through to you.......easy to pry at the cracks as it is to me and my brother chavEz??????? Not easy........if it were easy we would not have to be doing this....we would all understand one another. THIS IS NOT EASY! Warriornet is no longer safe.........it has been sabotaged. There is nothing more I can say.......but don't attack.......don't insult.....attack only comes from fear........our words are not attack they are teachings to you...... 506 years later and you still don't get it. Star             I know what you mean but it is as easy to pry at the cracks as it is for you and chavEZ. I promise I'll only focus on such technicalities once more and for all time be done with responding to thinskinned hurt...to focus on dust empathetically instead...building block supplying specks for all skin from protoplasmic on up. You said: ....our direction. We are not children nor ignorant. We never have been nor will we ever be.             ......listen to yourself too if you want to demand it of others. Of course you, as we all, were a child once and hopefully you shall have more to look forward to than to mourn for being lost.            I have more respect for children than for grown ups and what they all too soon make of them. Of course what I mean is: I have respect for the openness of 'unspoiled' children. I do not respect what grown ups make children go through 99% of the time ('greenering', pre-grazing stage indiginous people left to be themselves excepted).                 respectfully poetpiet
>>
On Tue, 9 Feb 1999 05:25:24    firstCircle wrote: dearest P-Squared...went to your site...gold standard and currency piece was interesting even though it is a bit dated, and with a glaring ommision----where did the majority of europe's gold come from in the first place? as for the rest of it, well, i find your mimicry of james joyce's, bucky fuller's, and jack kerouac's use of language uninspired and boring.       chaveZ             you are only the second person to acknowledge having cast a glance my way; thanks for the scrutiny, I am honoured. the only other person to do so was francois lachance, a very far flinging philosopher in canada, he liked my reversion of bad (into dab).    Anyway, not bad going for 5 years of work.       I think I 'll try plant an orchard next.
 Don't like Jack kerouac, never read him and the doc I saw disgusted me bycause of his alcohol use mostly. I abhor the stuff.         .............as for being dated: during the thirties (legend has it that some of Beckerath's proposals were on Bruening's desk when he got chucked by the Nazi's) the sun shone and sent news as much as it does now and will for longer than I care to try fathom no matter how long light takes to hit and spin our speck of dust-packed pry zone (sorry....I find joyce boring often enough too to be honest) as for the omission concerning Europe's gold origin: I believe I was reading Jack Weatherford right around the time I put that file called intro to currency issues together. That man is a gem and a must read. I have always regretted Beckerath's not so much uncritical but certainly unspecific attitude regarding slavery. He insisted on mutual and voluntary if not voluntarizing engagements. I suppose he just didn't like to dwell on the hurt, he wasn't one of those 'bodyelectronic(s.org)' people who's motto is: find the pain and push, all the while claiming miracles will happen.   I do too but in a much more modestly realistic way and prefer to put the pressure on less animated crystalizations only to make 'm more so and to raise my favorite standard of values: a regional, up, running and rizing rate of photosynthesis.                 regards    piet

Re: A renaming braved On Tue, 9 Feb 1999 12:16:54    Rabid Wolf wrote: >Damn, I call mine the william-jefferson-blythe-edit key *LOL* lol means fun in Dutch, lul means penis, frequently busied to denote idiot. >Rabid        >From: revfever@olywa.net <revfever@olywa.net> Date: Tuesday, February 09, 1999 12:14 PM >Subject: A renaming: >>My "delete" key just got given a new name. >>What was once the "delete" key,is now called the "Piet" key. G'day, Steven D. Stokes,  Olympia,WA             well, well, what all me nome snot good for piet will dutifully delete give that key plenty to eat it will sweep out all infidelic matter undeserving of your beat yes yes yes that key will keep you on your feet           re:--and?     the rest of course; I will interpret this as a request for more (?), taking the risk of it being interpreted as 'banter' and/or other pointless pieterisms. Let me ask you this? What does lol stand for for you? I've exhausted my range of associations unlike in steve's case, respect for whose age (same as mine) compells me to elaborate: Thou shalt not push thy vain piet in button; thou shalt not push piet in vain button; thou shalt not push thy piet button in vain, in other words: I sentence you to repeatedly read piet when aiming to delete. Are you trying to tell me the wages of selfeffacement are deletion and worse yet, one is used to delete others along with oneself into oblivion. Do I get to know what sort of company I end up with? Send me the content of your cozy cause pushed piet propelled trash can and I'll recycle it for you.

Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1999 15:34:17 -0000; Subject: jefferson quote;  To: warriornet@lists.speakeasy.org: don't know how Craven will feel about this jefferson quote but I guess I'll find out if it is strongly.    I copy/pasted it from http://www.syntac.net/hoax/anarchism.html   a site about and with modern trickster tactics, some of which I find useless worse than the navel staring I am accused of around here; just goes to show; hyrarchies everywhere; pick, peck, pipe, peep toot....     Title of page: Anarchists and Fellow Travellers:  "I am convinced that those societies (as the Indians) which live without government  enjoy in their general mass an infinitely greater degree of happiness than those who live under the European governments. Among the former, public opinion is in the place of law, & restrains morals as powerfully as laws ever did anywhere. Among  the latter, under pretence of governing they have divided their nations into two  classes, wolves & sheep. I do not exxaggerate.     - Thomas Jefferson philosopher, statesman, slave-boffer
On Thu, 11 Feb 1999 12:48:23   firstCircle wrote: piet:   "the slave boffer"? i don't care who wrote it. it is unacceptable. please try to control yourself.            chaveZ           such a nice fresh innocently new term put in a place where some wonder, some know and, suprise, some seem to care, even in these clontin da yen ages, .....put above a page with pics of the 6 or 7 most famous anarchists and links to their writs by the go througher of such trouble.....if we're gonna hear about 'it' anytime we turn on any 'media', in other words if the goddam principles seem to never refresh, we can at least pretend and change personages, payroles and pissposts (I'll be relieved shortly no doubt); that's all politics amounts to anymore since the pie is sold a millions times over. Here is a financing scheme for ya to receptackle or not:           http://www.globalresourcebank.com   or http://www.grb.net   or http://www.agp.org/agp/en/index.html Honestly didn't think it would or mean to offend anybody ....sorry....won't hippen again.             On Thu, 11 Feb 1999 12:45:36   Rabid Wolf wrote: >Sallie Hemmings was NOT a slave. She was a Quatroon and Jefferson's departed wife's HALF-SISTER.... ...He could not marry her because of the bigots who would have called him a slave-boffer .. Regardless of intent, that is STILL being a racist. >Rabid         ps for http://www.syntac.net/hoax/: the quote in question is the one on top of the "anarchist and fellow travellers" page; you know, the one with all the prestigious leading lights of anarchy, mugshots, texts and all.   perhaps y'ought to try bring out the ideal anarchism, mutual aid and community cohesion you no doubt intend to convey, I mean try indicate the order without pecking order (in the sense of chronically abstract dominance by the aloof, anonymous, encryption condoning low profile, high security folks at the stringpull/chainpush buttons deciding for everybody else) and all other catchy what not bumper stuck slogans trying to illustrate the superiority of small is beautiful, possible and universal with a less controversial testimony?        How about the merrymount story the middle ages or something?Or I suggest trying to divine what powderful men like Cernunnos might have said to deserve their title: lord of animals rather than quoting the powerfully corrupted modern limelight victims.

Date:Thu, 11 Feb 1999 16:48:00 -0000; Subject: forward from sovernet
To: warriornet@lists.speakeasy.org Forward: PEOPLES' GLOBAL ACTION AGAINST "FREE" TRADE  AND THE WORLD TRADE ORGANISATION (WTO)  INTER CONTINENTAL CARAVAN (ICC)  NEWSLETTER 1, JANUARY 1999  This is the first Newsletter of the Inter Continental Caravan (ICC). It  is hoped that there will be a newsletter produced regularly, at 6  weekly  intervals, between now and May, when the ICC starts. This  newsletter will be translated into several languages, and can also be read on the web site http://stad.dsl.nl/~caravan>. To receive this Newsletter regurlary, please send an e-mail to: <caravan@stad.dsl.nl           conveyor (me from the ranga tiratanga list to warrior) comments: I have witnessed the birth and progress of a number of low tec and very much cheaper (this one is estimated to cost 100 euro's each) demo pilgrimages across europe in the last few years; children's carriages loaded with pots and pans, rarely used cause local prominents thought the protesters, often walking without any banners at all, cute enough to feed and put up a night, etc.            A Dutch human powered 8 person peddle octcicle has been pushed into jordania around now by a rainbow brother and entourage.               For comments and reports on a SET tour (sustainable Europe tour) see my minerals_music_mud_and_ministry.htm file            All very well but..... they haven't been balancing the "against" this that or other with what they are "for" enough to my taste. Not for nothing has the word autonomy been assumed and besmirched by scavenging squatters. Anyway, for what it's worth, there is a lot to read at all the links herein.

about my net nemesis and petty tyranter: Louis Proyect (see part 3 in this series for one of his best efforts) my last pen-l effort:  Date: Fri, 29 Jan 1999 14:18:33 -0000 Subject: swan sangk ;  To: knowware@istar.ca, valis@execpc.com: thought you might like this and if it carries your approval you may use it any way you fancy (it would be nice if you posted it under some fictitious name; I sent this to dear michael (the listmom in Proyect's pocket) as well:          to pen-l: Dear Michael, thanks for the swift blow, you might point me towards where you explain why no warnings or complaints are needed for this sort of jilting.         Be so kind as to publically excuse me (confess! I'd hate to think people thought me uncommited) with this as my parting post by way of well wishing to pen-l: it was written on the last day of a 5 year stretch working on this site without pay and as it turns out on the very same one I found myself unsubbed due to "banter".

On Thu, 11 Feb 1999 15:34:46   Gerald Levy wrote: piet bouter wrote:  I ain't about to come up with the software but don't let Proyect 'get'  you as easily as he did me.             >Hello, whoever you are ...     I can't say as I know you, but there's something you should know ... On PEN-L, Proyect doesn't have to "get" me ... since Michael Perelman unsubscribed me yesterday. I.e. I was purged. Regards, Jerry            Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1999 18:52:26 -0000; To: glevy@pratt.edu, knowware@istar; gerry levy and tom walker two pen-l ers: hi, I see you are taking the brunt of top heavy irate potency in the right direction. About time.             Poor Proyect; he is as schizo as the best of capitalists; just remember, until he learns to talk to himself directly (admit he's doing it on the sly and chronically at that) he will succeed in  convincing himself he is genuinely responsive and adressing his pen partners on target.              Tom has already sniffed at my turfing ideas I'm sure (almost) and it's all I can do; I ain't about to come up with the software but don't let Proyect 'get' you as easily as he did me. He probably intercepted my marxist list post (the bit about the Makuta index basket standard, remember Tom?) and almost managed to throw me off warriornet as well. And I'm not so sure he hasn't accused me of banter in a decisive email to pearly white listpops for pen. If you all think that is justified after perusing http://members.tripod.com/~poetpiet/
guest_appearances/intro_to_currency_issues.htm (again?) than so be it.
     Na(t)ive economies such as European Middle ages ones (brilliantly characterized by Egon Friedell; an austrian who may never have been translated) as well, are surely worth 'figuring in' and Proyect will never lose my respect for that but that doesn't make me lose sight of his despotic traits.
Date: Fri, 12 Feb 1999 10:06:16 -0000 To:  "Gerald Levy" <glevy@pratt.edu>
good thing the man hasn't the manpower (he wishes) to command, we 'd be meeting in some gulag instead of here in friendly but frigid cyberspace; all the best anyway and if you want more of the same (proyect's indignities with 'subjects'; something he seems to find yukkie anyway; he's an oddball jew alright, heroic as hell and yet....he grew up in a fruitshop; that's where he got his flair and spunk I'm sure) let me know; I can supply a 100K of recent shit, meanwhile there's always: progressive_ecoknowmusts.htm

An unready draft on jesus and jews (once again): One of the topics I would like to get rolling, a subject I feel needs broaching in the near future concern my  (sorry about all the I'z and my'z) questions and puzzlement over the sympathy NA have with Jews; OK, they are both prosecuted and genocidally asaulted and OK, Jews were not averse to a little sacrifice for the greater good, but they beat their neighbours and went exploring (not to put too fine a point on it) like no NA would ever dream of doing, having no experience with over grazing and numerous offspring as a reward and goal almost in itself. No qualities and aspects I imagine the NAs want to emulate and identify with. Their eye for detail is another matter.          Jesus was a rage; infectious as only the most solid repute and a square wave can be. He indeed carried man's burden, exuded and transmitted this awareness zipped and snappy. A consciousness too much for most but not easily got rid of with or without him once besthrowed upon the world. The crossing sticks bundled in the middle or at one end form a brush; tied together at their ends all manner of shapes you may set to rub when spinning.           Women are fair fighters, they play (piggybank to the contents of) his balls not the man. Men can fight fair too, if they play the principle not the person or single species singled out.              An addition to my Jewish inversion series which started with the feeling that Noah stands for hordes and strings of generation taking woodchopping and shipping very seriously, thereby causing rather than escaping floods.       Perhaps they weren't escaping slaves and/or slavery but abandoned some used up ones including their literally sucked dry territory for more succulent ones . I like arguments for exterritorial allegiance immensely too though and it is becoming the hype of the 3rd millenium so I am not alone in that. Either way massifyers along the old non-sustainable nomadic (curse)lines is a worry.             Peace and trade vs war and nomadics; private property and absentee ownership are like milk teeth in the mechanorganic body of free trade

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