Sparrings with,  and first attempts to elicit responses to my site from people who pile up messages at the progressive economists (pen-l) part of:
communications for a sustainable future
http://csf.colorado.EDU/lists/pen-l/   a listserv at the U of Colorado maintained by Michael perelman who wrote: 'primitive accumulation'; the frequently returning topic which initially attracted me to this motley crew: Marxists and barely tolerated dissidents (participants there combat democrapitalism from various angles such as market socialism) thereof is: indiginous struggles. Messages there are sorted by month and author, thread or subject. Specs for size added would make it even more decent and easy to forget the one liners, a complete waste of time in my opinion unless you deliver masses of them like I do elsewhere. For a look at some of what I think is pertinent to progression, have a look at: guest_appearances/
there's half a meg of text which looks Joycean at first site but is quite rigorous really
once you look through the scanning fuzzyness.
contents:  about Louis Proyect (see new_links) a heavy contributor to the crew just mentioned an email to him and one to many correspondents there      the only 'respondeur' from these world emburdened 'revolstutionists' so far;      messages to and fro Valis the pen-l poolpal         to a colleague of his who calls himself Boddhisatva
All in all, I feel I couldn't have had a better introduction to the phenomenon: list-serves. This one gives one no registration hassles and has author/thread/date/and subject seperation capabilities;
link files at this site are: commendablinklist.htm  and  new_links.htm and recent_links.htm  and fifth_linklist.htm (only partly hypered) and a second priority file with Balkan sites, lists and (re)commentdations (almost fully hypered)
For more (insi(gh)te to(with)insite) links, see the navigaid below
Welcome to the future flour(y) pow(d)er fostering, potentially fastest and already (for sure) the most solid(ly formatted) prose-poetry on earth over 88 files (averaging over 88 colourful Kz) worth of contextual(about 7 Megs spread out across over 88 files ((averaging over 88 K'z colourful concept- harmonized and hyrarchical wordsequences, including 4 megs worth of images, even)) worth of contextual): BLABS=Bottom Line Aphoristically Ballistic Solutionswhich can, want to and will (dis)solve all uncivilly polarizing centralizations (break up and open (c)lumpy niches and lumpynesses, wether they be institutionally animated or simply, inertly dormant(yet animatable), by pushing the logistic limits (to light) inventively, notably those (rocks) constraining vertical metabolisms (of trees).
Should you encounter colours you can neither eyeball nor stomach here, don't get upset nor tell me my page is inaccesible, just scroll your mouse across offending and eyesore segments or get rid of 'm at a double stroke: Ctrl + a; voila, your favorite highlight colours!(if you have bothered to spec your prefs on the hopefully public machines you use. Please help if not end private property of communication and other flowing or infrastructably conveyables, at least unblock access to nonmolestering worthies).
About Louis Proyect, a frequent contributor: As a + I can say this man is one in a million when it comes to ethnic interaction, another gem on which is his colleague in this list: Jim Craven. As a - I must admit he is a man who's admiration for Marx is beginning to be a bit suspect to me but at his MML page the caption to a picture of Lenin reads: .'....overgrown......', instead of overthrown; for a while I was under the pleasant illusion he really meant to be so witty (and realistic), I am learning different lately (sept 98), some fanatic denunciations of persons instead of (un)principles lead me to believe his admiration for Marx is not unmixed with suffering from similar intolerances; I have never been very interested in Marx myself but Colin Ward's 'Criminal history of mankind' contains 3 telltale pages on Marx which lead me to believe I haven't missed much. Just yesterday (14 0ct) I found another bit of evidence that Louis is totally intolerant of faulty grammar and sentence construction; he dismisses stuff which I think has some redeeming elements: his post amster-demo has an alinea unlikely to have been written by a native speaker but this time Louis thinks the matter unworthy of source citation and dismisses the whole thing as: anarchist bullshit; the term bottom-up appearing therein however, catches my attention every time......
Nevertheless: places of indisputably great interest which prompted the following letter: http://www.panix.com/jewish_backwardness.html   http://www.panix.com/mypage.html   http://www.panix.com/marxism.html
an Email to him: "one chewchop make no chop dewish" which he didn't bother to answer:
hi, i checked your mml (Marx Mailing List) site and articles today, really really loved 'm!!!!!!!!!!!! neato, man after my own heart, if I wanted no Natives for local presidents I would choose you for president jew! I feel like you are one of the few with a slight chance to understand what I am on about and God knows, maybe I will try lead a strike at an armament producing company, applying my very own methods and money to make it a mint media mark not to be missed; all bycause of your inspirations; I hope you got my earlier generic invite and that this here will get you to go see http://members.tripod.com/~poetpiet for sure           poetpiet
In this next bit below I adress myself to some collegue-collaborators of his; subject: "greateyetudes, requests and offers"
to: rws@comserver.canberra.edu.au, (he asked for (cheap) economy text book recommendations in one of his posts)
copies minus first alinea to: Bigwayne19@aol.com, valis@execpc.com (some of his posts are well worth it), dhenwood@panix.com, knowware@istar.ca, michael@ecst.csuchico.edu, sokol@jhu.edu:  beste meneer Robert Schaap,  (I better switch back to English, at least until you tell me Dutch is among your skills/bad habits). To you applies (some of) the following perhaps particularly, since a very small postal charge would get some of the microfiche mentioned below from Berrima the 2 driving hours to Canberra area; don't let the name of your supplier (nor the infame of me your implorer) fool you: libertarian microfiche publishing(lmp). It is a one man show with lots of rare (anarchically inclined)(Tucker, Proudhon et al) untangling angles on the (along with capitalism I guess) intractably derailing marx-engles-lenin train. Sorry that last sentence was atrocious but I hope you can enjoy the wordings I used elsewhere (see below) to digest what I have so crippledly hinted at above; I did ponder over and rearrange them an awful lot but hell I'm just a megainterknotter aren't I?   heaps of good luck wishes piet
ps: your worries are over...average booksize at the cost of 1 dollar!!!!!!!!!   The best and least known work from the fateful thirties but no matter principles are timeless....well relatively anyway right?
To all the folks mentioned above, from whom I am trying (this way since I don't know how to join you posting panelers) to elicit, merit and tease a response (to my site (Louis didn't care to by the way)) through:      1) praise for high value content (thank you all)       2)scolding you for being neither progressive nor economic enough like 'sokol' said recently. I hope some of you are able (the best bits are in.... guess what....German) to take some leads toward purchasing and reading the microfiches referred to in the file called value standards and weather stability at my site (poetpiet, see below) which contain the principles that deserve to become more than merely potential universal currency without a fair chance to actually catalize a ((p)(re))version.
Here are the only exchanges started since then (all of them between me and valis so far): On Wed, 9 Sep 1998, [I] wrote:  For the moment, after a cursory glance, I must say that I have no idea what you're on about.  Your post is a thing of many confusing parts. However, I promise to look it over carefully (Websites also) during spare time over the next few days.
Done! No further communications till then, please.        valis          2 days later:  Piet, we on this list are facing immediate challenges; I doubt that any member has the time or inclination to pick through your poetic explosions of thought, fancy and possible revelation for visions that might be of practical use.  If this simply demonstrates my/our flaws, well, so be it and I apologize.  Perhaps we are, ourselves, a part of the problem(s) we wish to solve. Whatever recognition you are after, don't give up, but seek elsewhere. Best,  valis       Weeks later I wrote valisthe following as a reaction to a short post of his saying: have you a helmet and safety belt on?: hi mr flippant-floppy pants, sure you are too serious for my (one man) league? well, put your braverygear on too cause here you go I linked to your ko$$ovo piece in my last problematic priority issues update hope you don't mind and thanks His contention: Why are you so pointlessly antagonistic, and to a stranger? I think you are too unbalanced personally to take on the world's problems.  My answer to that carried a subject like: Megalomaximarxcisticism
you are no stranger pal, a personality everybody may reckon with, be enlightened and entertained by (thanks again) you idiot revolutionaries are so deadly serious  and megalomaximarxcisted that a pathetic polyflavored word such as the one earlier in this line doesn't do justice to the patheticism. By a long shot. PS where is your sense of humour??????? I thought you were least bound to take offense out of the 5 or 6 out of your cliquey key click batch Your misinterpretation has demoted you from the top of my ranking. you are now running up to Jim Craven
The next episode proves Valis is into neologizing too, and he does me the honour of taking me on point for point; his subject:
Re: Megalomaximarxc[y?]sticism. Basically you are Europe talking.  You must have noticed my complaining several times that the list is too American and therefore distorted to the point of being useless. I think there is more than one of you; there is a Dutchman at the  Free Uni of Amsterdam but also someone else, probably a Brit, and likely others beside you two.  So what are you, anarchists, disappointed Third Positionists, or what? PS where is your sense of humour??????? I thought you were least bound >> to take offense out of the 5 or 6 out of your cliquey key click batch Your language here confuses me.  You expected me to challenge at least 5 or 6 people in pen-l?  I challenged _everybody_ with my July 11th post on the novel "Ceremony" and Russell Means, but everyone pretended not to notice.  I had earlier posts complaining that our Marxism was too much like a religion; that evidently preceded the onset of your lurking, too.These were ignored as well. Your misinterpretation has demoted you from the top of my ranking, you are now running up to Jim Craven
Meaning that you admire him, that he's the most real? Your term of address yesterday (mr. flip floppypants) now seems more ambiguous than insulting or plainly irrational, for I imagine you would appreciate my flip-flop rather than mock it. Yassure, closer this time
Correctingly comments on his own earlier assertion:I think you are too unbalanced personally to take on the world's  problems.
Well, the jury is still out on this assertion. Question: Are all these left-center governments reason for hope, or are they jokes from the start?  From over here it's hard to tell. (Or are you dedicated to a politics beyond such tired-out considerations?) > Sorry I forgot to make perusal of the use I made of your post easy: > http://members.tripod.com/~poetpiet/priority_issues.htm
I had mishaps when trying the above URL in full, but by chopping off the last component I reached a directory containing the priority_issues file,
*among others*.  I see that you have incorporated all our exchanges in a recent correspondence file that has links (i.e., is already public).
Well, I accept that I gamble every time I hit that Send key; my words could end up in far worse places, I suppose.  The only problem is that
I still don't really understand _what kind_ of place you are constructing: a week of undivided effort would be required to work out its language and epistemological architecture.  If you would just answer the questions in my previous message, perhaps I will make that effort.       v.              OKeydokey, here goes: Well, I am happy with the changes in Germany so far but our very own coindwarf 'Duitendwerg' ...arh, sorry Duisenberg of course, is not somebody to start appreciating sites like: www.free.de/geld or my bits on the IMF in priority issues (Recently updated with your contribution; thanks again)... As far as my faction goes, ...I go and vica versa; the fractionation factoring has chosen some poor pr channels of which I am a very scared scout in enemy territory. A black american who works on a Eurotalk mailing list next to me here is always telling me Europe has no clout, it's gotta put up cause it can't put out. I think we are perhaps being infected by as much as admiring and emulating a lot* of the socalled scale economies that were born and burgeoned States-side. These figure always and only when leaving out ethnological and environmental costs. The power mongers and secretive style centralizers that be always subsidize destabilizing divisions, all the while 'distantiating' (a typically quite common Dutchification of distance is distantieren) themselves from any and all consequences (Shell declining responsability in Nigeria; they play IMF with pots of money wrapped in paper with moral directives for the virtuoso distributors scribbled on it). Divide and play 'm off against each other is fun in polyfidelitous intimacy where 'm are wommbmmen but when it (how do 'surplus' concentrations of males happen?) leads to 'leadership' and large scale conquerule with standard imposability by top down systems very undeserving of the noun: federation or party. This applies especially in money emission techniques, a topic the poor Marxists have never had a good grasp on, praps cause they seem to think power corrupts not necessarily cause it certainly wouldn't in their case...they perhaps know and feel that for sure..., I don't know. I think we are up shit's creek (is I believe how you put it right?) either way. * For instance the pathetic talk shows perpetraitored by people who should realize they have strayed far from a sustainable sort of lifestyle and are in need of radical purges, permacultures, handtools, car addiction kicks, etc. are becoming a feature here as well. No, Piet, I have not forgotten you, but today I had no time or energy for penetrating your manic clouds of words, and now I'm all but nodding out on my keyboard.  Tomorrow will be better, hopefully. BTW, your link at www.free.de/geld is dead.       valis - All lies have the same pedigree -              take your time----whenever you are ready----no hurry I tried attaching this file to save you a trip over to my place but no dice, I even lost a version of this message trying to do it. I ll have to upload it now. Oh well, there is something to be said for publicity in my case I hope...... the link www.free.de/geld is not dead just not very lively, no changes for a while a lot of sites I like change all too little my very own first one was abandoned as soon as born I ran to the other side of the world afraid of explosive responses, fortune and fame. Came back cured well and good.           Valis is becoming a loyal, responsive, supportive and in a word: understanding pal      Thanks valis!         Well, Piet, it was a day today much like yesterday: I had trouble approaching your ranting, and right now I'm falling asleep. Are you of the opinion (like my esteemed NYer friend and admirer although long time no peep, kick nor token)  that coffee is a despicable drug?            No idea what my 4 lucky fellow Genossen think about all this; as far as I know there has been no contact on this matter. I see some connection with the Celtic revival and the alternative Amsterdam conference of June '97, und so weiter,          (I had nothing to do with it valis, honest, I was in Australia attending a logging blockade, see priority issues for a report)             and I suppose you're trying hard to be both an unbridled madman yet informative, but right now I don't have the energy to put it all together. Maybe I'll try during the weekend, because I'm assuming that you are indeed trying to say _something_.   valis             Not trying much anymore valis, it sorta comes in waves, like life itself, tis like a predictable routine almost, but I don't bother much to time the complex rhythms of my nudgetory natal niche colournizing, take'm as they come, leave the map at home and yet...go see my most recent thought for an angle of some of the things shown in my spectral sample file. But I am not sure I like routine, especially with my computer access time limited to office hours....You guys are the ones trying to hear  any_of_that_something_I_am_on_about.           PS  I imagine that even _this_ will be dumped into a public file in accordance with the value you place on the deed and the moment.      yep     This is perceived by most, I'm sure, as a serious inability to discriminate between importance and nonsense; also a gross lack of simple consideration.  From a family picnic you would have a photo of Brother Marinus scoring the winning goal - hurrah! - but also one of Uncle Willem, drunk as usual, and of Cousin Saskia trying to discreetly relieve herself in the bushes.  No shame! From shame back to shade, 't is my parool(owe)!!      the 20th of the 10th, '98 I wrote the following after seeing Valis' comment on the arrest of Pinochet:   valis, I love you!    I'm patently unlovable, and what are you going to do about your refusal to separate your words from mine in your tattle-tale files? This remark refers to a mistake of mine in an earlier: starting my answer on the same line his message stopped         Re: Re: Refusal not supplied nor stubbornness suppositable. ....Well, not from this anyway....     Is my concern about that just a lingering bourgeois affectation?       If falling asleep on the keyboard while my pages blinkers its fake flowerpatchyness down upon you, does the type of wonders now in evidence, I don't mind at all. In fact, I feel honoured to be such a guardian, keepsafer and cast dreamercurious sheens over your REMming and whatever else, hairgrowing I suppose, head. May I help you come back up out of your refreshments with the kind of sharp snd serious diagnosis I recently read many times more!      Total babbling nonsense, this, but poets can't click 100% of the time.       You wil graduate to a polygnosis comprehensive enough to tackle the documents I intend to scan and upload at the earliest opp. You may find things like the 30ties editions of the trilingual mag: Annalen der Gemeinwirtschaft, ed: Edgar Milhaud in your very own library way befor I manage to do this but it seems the waiting and hoping somebody more competent than me is gonna do it has resulted in 11 hampered and handicapped years for all those looking to make a secession a success. The net offers nothing but playful stuff on that score.      Just what I always wanted, to be polygnostic, but isn't knowledge endless? OK, I await Milhaud, von Beckerath and the rest of your '30s Genossen (I really don't have much choice about it, do I, as long as I keep the same Net account?!). Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com BTW, Microsoft bought hotmail.com a couple of months ago,
so how can it really be free and private?     valis

Here is one to a Pen-L contributor calling himself Boddhisatva:  To help ease the impending bitter pil along its passage, getting your medicine down, iow help you go through a healing crisis onslaught which renews and vitalizes even down to the bone, I will first indicate where I heartily agree with you: the following section is taken from my /commendablinklist.htm
economy from the bottom on up:  imperative principles (if not reading) to aid the incessantly fresh attempts to liberate, seceed and emancipate from, start up, autonomize, in other words: make selfsufficient and independent numerous derelict lots, mininations, territories and (bio)regions like whole watersheds (preferably, since that would be able to pioneer, demonstrate and show an integral alternative way to hark back to constituencies both mute and very vocal): www.free.de/geld
(the substance of this site is in Germanthough not the links) (the best work there was written in the 30ties by Ulrich von Beckerath',  posted here along with some other classic social reformers from the monetarily savvy anarchist corner, in or translated into German; as I said elsewhere, he would make up for Hitler and all the other German speaking evil ones, past and future if only his ideas were given a go for a century or so. Will somebody please post some in english? I went to Australia to accomplish this but ended up with a course correction toward indiginous issues on which I and the custodian of Beckerath's remaining work (thousands and thousands of repetitive letters available from him on microfiche) did not see eye to eye; for more backscratch turned bite see the appendices) Another economist who deserves some focus now is Roland Vaubel, scarcely to be found though; he is one of the hundred something or so economics professors from Germany to speak out against a rush job for the EURO, arguing in favor of a  proof of balance delivering step by step sort of progression as best for most such cases in a big fat academic tome about currency competition and unification.  Two of the all too rare bits of info on John Zube's by now 1400 microfiche issues, see my appendices and value standard chapter: art.net/Poets/Jennifer/anarchy
http://www.newciv.org/GIB/BOV/BV-620.HTML (it's been there a good long while)
I will now play missing link between you and Jim by telling you (all?) where to find people working on filling that conceptual hiatus of yours (and with you many) about what permapleached wilderness (tradition with a modern knot, graft and twist or so may do. In my new links file I placed it in this category: going native sites: http://www.tlio.demon.co.uk/tinkers.htm (Low Impact Development Planning and people in a sustainable countryside' author simon Fairlie's abode; a bubbling bender behovelment called: Tinker's blobble). An aside: In a discussion about wether democrapitalism can sucker just about anybody with their bribes; about native and indiginous peoples' desire to give up their traditions and if they do so as easily and eagerly as fresher and/or rasher hybrids, B coined the phrase: '20 acres and a deer' implying this would constitute a living too poor to boast about or wanna hold on to. 20 acres and a deer You probably gathered I came across your 20 acres and a deer definition of hunter/gatherer subsistence. A deer and what? A deer and/in paradise surely? Dunno what I mean? Perpetual carnival of suprise star appearances from within the community with its amply filled myriads of  niches; the most alively diverse and multiply buffered layer land (not to be confused with lui lekker (lazy, nice) land) possible. Silk hats on pigs indeed. Perhaps a bit of smooth mud flung/slapped and/or sprayed across colourful confetti swept up into compost piles by our stage hand the wind who insists on being payed and flayed by birds wings......etc. Even at my 40 years of age I saw a miracle in the very old metropolis I peddle through. The park has a rainbow conjuring fountainpond, I am one of the few from the hundred thousand or so who has ever swam it voluntarily, but I have never ever yet seen what I saw there this morning: a bathing heron. Just do try do justice to my selfchosen nickname. de reiger neemt een bad
de reiger maakt zijn veren nat.    In a lot of ways the 'hyping of hypering': driving info industry shareprices up as an act of faith and vote of confidence in the surely near consensual and to be verified feeling that the tricking (us all into the trickle down) trick inventions which ex defence industry employers are allowed to run riot on and with (a matter of inventing screenings which prevent all good things, (still believed to be coming from above exclusively, this I now realize even more acutely after reading Deloria (thanks pen-Lers)), from being disgraced and unrecognizably fragmented upon reaching too low a mired level in the hyrarchy of beings, iow: to be caught before they get to far down and negligibly out of reach for the initially privileged as economic weather director, bearometric pretty sure pressure pumper(go for the big fish, be a man) is analogous to what permaculture is able to do to people (with natal earth houses housing favorable aspect and/or venus well enough escorted...that means everybody really....at some window of opportunity or other..this just maybe yours...); they see the future all rosy, cosy and sumptious, act on the courage of their visionary convictions and start with the first steps to see some results quick enough to provide shade in 7 years at the most.
Both factions are able to argue believably cause they are given the credit of prophets, people speaking from a position of having been there (much of the respect for indigenes derives therefrom also). The greenies give account of physical perfectability and harmonization when they are are able to paint the fullgrown pleached and otherwise infrastructured (a process that will take a 1000 years to become (re)established with all the glitches of forgotten, exterminated and incompatible combo's worked out (again)) picture replete with abundance and free time. If we are on towards such days, we'll have indians leading no doubt,  and if I can help it they'll just cut up rock more spectacularly than they ever did it to living hearts one time. The optimism on info shares is similar: people expect the companies to harmonize their products and by rocking the boats, hoppering the stopped up passage ways into flow and metabolism, that is: allowing employees to crossfertilize at a moments notice (kindalike rainbow gatherings, where every teahouse respects the man hauling a chunk of wood) clean each other's junk up. Well....your turn always comes wether you pass 'm up or not.            So far (more than a week now) he is playing the rude prude, not bothering to reciprocate with a link of his own but for more attentive readers I will point to the so far regrettably few other titbits on Zube and Beckerath within my site: value standards..., bibliography.... and inthrow       Another day (15 oct) of intense csf time behind me. Time to send something off to 5 of yus. Yall are invited to go see what I made of the increasing amount of time spent on PEN-L; especially since late summer I have perused and read almost half (with liberal...oops, generous sprinklings of some others thrown in) of Jim Craven's, Boddhi's, Proyect's and valis's contributions to 9 out of the 17 available...discussions, meanwhile archives.     Quite impressive, my kind of soap opera, with yall taking turns going red in the face and blowing up, maturer and perhaps more cynical characters excepted.... Thanks for the refs Jim; and yes Boddhi, principles are more lasting than people but there ain't no what withou a who and none of yall even touch the backed up right up front specificity and perspicacious penetration of Ulrich von Beckerath, so there! It may seem odd that he is only to be found on the net at a virtually lifeless webadress (he has however been available on fiche for decades thanks to the diligence of a dissident German jailwarden in Auzzieland. Ahaaah, the vagaries of fate, such high comedy, ain't it?) which I nevertheless call my fav cause of his presence there. Philip Callahan, another one of my hero's isn't on the net either except for a book add or two, but he is still alive luckily.
Dearest Louis, I'm sorry to see violence has not found better use than vague hopes for confrontational kinds or offendingly dismissive ones when you come across something like the fwd: Amster-demo; which you dismiss on grounds more seriously judgemental than just flawed formulation (see the bit above about yourself). I  personally prefer to swear by out- and overgrowing rather than throwing over and out as trump and tip off towards my kind of a more native, indiginous kind of celtic radicality, the type I must be suited to understand better than others. It will be a long time before any of their tribes are taking off from where they left off, or rather invite and entice their strays back to the fold. Wanna trade, anybody?
Anyway this is my token of appreciation.
http://members.tripod.com/~poetpiet

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Is this the only disfunctional counter(ring) culture left?
Half of this site was created/gestating during the 80ties (links thereto start at the last quarter of the index and the last half of the toc) and the rest since then (latest files at tops of all content files).  last major corrections to this file: 1997; last minor changes took place in july 99

A site navigaid:     Switch to soundbite sampled files of the newer works at this site from Blabsabs_Index.htm            Use the links in the latter half to reach my older work (via appetizing one or two line characterizations of the aphorisms, essays and segments, which vary in size from a few lines to a page or two)(those with titles are listed in the table_of_contents.htm             These most mulled over bits are again briefly described (differently, including proper name plus keyword source(l)inks)in the abstracts file.          One may prefer to switch to my guest appearances and check my credentials first (sometime anyway I hope): /intro_to_currency_issues.htm              Then there is the off the cuff stuff: my several (11 files) list picks and interactions via: table of contents for all list post files.               And finally my (another 11 file): correspondence collection.